MEETINGS & COURSES IN THE NEWS

Exploratorium/Origins: Unwinding DNA
Life at a Cold Spring Harbor meeting

September 2009: The Best Conferences – Genome Technology profiles the best conferences in genome science. CSHL scores top in two represented categories General Genomics (for the Biology of Genomes meeting) and Bioinformatics (for the Genome Informatics meeting) and the annual Biology of Genomes meeting is also the standout overall winner across all categories surveyed. Read the entire survey at www.genomeweb.com

June 2009: NY Times (Nicholas Wade), June 15- At a symposium on evolution at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory on Long Island....In the last few years, however, four surprising advances have renewed confidence that a terrestrial explanation for life’s origins will eventually emerge.

June 2009: Science, Vol 324, pp 1252-1253 - Some RNA May Play Key Role....l
At the Biology of Genomes Meeting held May 5-9, 2009, Thomas Gingeras is quoted as saying "For the past 5 to 10 years, researchers have been cataloging the presence of the noncoding RNAs". He went on to say "Now poeple want to understand what they do". Over the past 3 years, researchers have come to realize that protein-coding genes account for barely a quarter of the DNA that gets transcribed.

October 2008: Nature - Getting Personal
As the first conference on personal genomes opened earlier this month at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in New York, some present were wondering whether the event was a little premature. After all, only four people’s genomes have so far been fully sequenced and assembled, and it’s still quite difficult to interpret the genetic variation found in them. But the participants soon began to realize that, in one sense, the meeting was overdue. Rarely do research subjects attend scientific meetings. Yet at this inaugural meeting the Nobel prizewinning biologist James Watson sat in the front row as other researchers dissected his genetic vulnerabilities via a Power Point presentation. So far, Watson says, it has not been a particularly profound experience: “I haven’t really learned anything, except that I’m lactose intolerant.”

October 2008: Genome Technology
About 150 people descended on Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory last week for the first Personal Genomes meeting. describing the proceedings of the first half of the conference, which kicked off with talks from Jim Watson, Francis Collins, and Mary-Claire King. GTO enjoyed the conference as well, but we were a little surprised by how many mainstream-media journalists were in attendance. Looks like this whole personal genomics thing really is getting the public's attention.

July 2008: Science Online
The Leading Strand hosts a collection of video-recorded presentations from Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory (CSHL) meetings and courses. The site is divided into Restricted Access and Open Access sections. The Open Access section features freely available seminars, including the full series of presentations

May 2008: Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute and Applied Biosystems Announce Project to Advance Study of Cancer Genomics.
Pharmacy Choice: The purpose of this research is to provide the highest resolution picture to date of genetic variation in the development of cancer. Preliminary scientific findings resulting from this collaboration will be presented at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory's Biology of Genomes meeting in New York from May 6 - 10. In this collaboration, scientists will use five Applied Biosystems SOLiD Systems in an effort to sequence the genomes of a small cell lung cancer cell line

April 2008:
A Blog Around the Clock: It appears that every scientific discipline has its own defining moment, an event that is touted later as the moment of "birth" of the field. This can be a publication of a paper (think of Watson and Crick) or a book ("Origin of Species" anyone?). In the case of Chronobiology, it was the 1960 meeting at Cold Spring Harbor. The book of Proceedings from the Meeting (Symposia on Quantitative Biology, Vol.XXV) is a founding document of the field: I have two copies, my advisor has three (all heavily used and annotated).
The 1960 meeting was not the first one. There were a few others before, e.g ., one in Stockholm, Sweden, another in Feldafing, Germany. But the Cold Spring Harbor meeting was special. Why? I don't know - I wasn't even born yet. I have a hunch that there were several aspects of this symposium that made it different from the preceding meetings. First, the sheer number of participants was larger thus, perhaps, reaching a critical mass, or crossing a threshold needed for the group to feel as if they are not just congregating individuals but a part of something bigger. Additionally, being a part of a venerable tradition of powerful meetings at Cold Spring Harbor may have signaled to the group that they were finally taken seriously by a broader scientific community.

April 2008: iPlant Kickoff Conference at CSHL begins tacking plant biology’s grand challenges
Genetic Engineering News - Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory will host the inaugural conference of the iPlant Collaborative, an NSF-funded, $50 million project to create a virtual center in cyberspace for plant sciences researchers and students. The kickoff conference, titled 'Bringing Plant and Computing Scientists Together to Solve Plant Biology's Grand Challenges' ...

January 2008: Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory to play central role addressing key questions in plant biology at April 2008 Conference
SeedQuest - Central information website for the global seed industry News section The new iPlant Collaborative will unite scientists across disciplines at Cold Spring Harbor, New York and will play a central role in an important new initiative called the iPlant Collaborative, funded ...

December 2007: From Kinase to Cancer
The Scientist: Vol. 21, Issue 12, p44 (L. Cantley)
The story of discovering PI3 kinase, and what it means for a fundamental pathway in cancer. Related Articles Related Cell Signaling content: In 1987 I attended a meeting at Cold Spring Harbor on phosphatidylinositol signaling that turned out to be pivotal for me. A few years earlier I'd helped show that a phosphatidylinositol (PI) kinase activity copurified with various oncoprotein tyrosine kinases, ...

December 2007: Brain stem cells ‘exceptionally sensitive’ to cosmic radiation
Himtimes
Keeping in mind the importance of preventing astronauts from harmful effects of space radiation during extended missions to the Moon or Mars, scientists have shown that radiation targets stem cells in the hippocampus, a brain area important for learning and mood control. During the course of study, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory scientists developed mice that were genetically engineered with easily identifiable, fluorescent stem cells. The stem cells lose their fluorescence when they transform into neurons, which makes it easier to account for them. Dr. Grigori Enikolopov, a neurobiologist at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, said that the study revealed that a special type of stem cell is selectively killed in the hippocampus. The cell is described as quiescent, or quiet, because even though it is the wellspring that repopulates the brain with new cells, it exists in relative repose while its daughter cells divide and reproduce in great numbers.

October 2007: Proteomic course demonstration
MSN Money
Plexera Bioscience has been invited to demonstrate its Proteomic Processor Biosensor(TM) at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory during the three-week Proteomics Course beginning November 6, 2007. As one of eight National Cancer Institute-designated basic research centers in the U.S., Cold Spring Harbor hosts a series of short courses whereby scientists from academia and industry gather to learn the latest scientific advances and to be trained in new cutting-edge technologies. The Cold Spring Harbor course brings together scientists from all over the world to present and evaluate new data and ideas in rapidly moving areas of biological research.

September 2007: Is Internal Timing Key to Mental Health?
Science 317, p1488 (Y. Bhattacharjee)
Some researchers believe that misalignments between certain circadian rhythms and the sleep-wake cycle may be a driver of mental illness and that light therapy and other interventions that target the body's biological clock could help treat depression and other mood disorders. Alfred Lewy and Colleen McClung, both speakers at Cold Spring Harbor’s 72nd Symposium: Clocks & Rhythms held in June 2007 are mentioned in the article with details of recent studies. Also, Namni Goel of the University of Pennsylvania reported at the Symposium that many 24-hour hormonal rhythms in patients with night eating syndrome were either advanced or delayed with respect to the sleep-wake cycle.

May 2006: Grappling with the Chicken Genome
Science Magazine, Volume 312, #5777, Issue 05/26/06
"Hoping to get their roosters in a row, chicken researchers gathered earlier this month at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in New York and hatched plans for analyzing the first bird genome. Eighteen months after an initial draft of the chicken sequence was released, bioinformaticists are still struggling to identify the fowl's 20,000 or so genes."

April 2006: A Source of Trusted Techniques
Nature Reviews, Molecular Cell Biology 7, p240
Ekat Kritikou
"CSH Laboratory is renowned for its teaching of biomedical research techniques. For decades, participants in the hands-on courses and users of its laboratory manuals have gained access to the most reliable methods in molecular and cellular biology.."

June 3, 2005: Extinct Genome Under Construction
Science 308, pp 1401-2, Elizabeth Pennisi
"COLD SPRING HARBOR, NEW YORK--At the Biology of Genomes meeting here, 11 to 15 May, genomicists reported on past as well as future genomes. The chromosomes of animals from the distant past may be long gone, but that hasn't stopped bioinformaticists from trying to reconstruct what that old DNA looked like...."

June 3, 2005: Reading Ancient DNA the Community Way
Science 308, p1401, Elizabeth Pennisi
"...at the Cold Spring Harbor meeting, James Noonan and Edward Rubin of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in Berkeley, California, presented a new way to distinguish ancient DNA from that of more recent hangers-on..."

May 27, 2005: Random Samples - Hapmapopoly
Science 308, p1253
" A new game promises to be a big hit in the world's genomics laboratories. A play on Monopoly, HapMapopoly replaces real estate with sequencing centers and railroads with journals. (Science stands in for Pennsylvania Railroad.)..."

May 20, 2005: Gene Sequence Study Takes a Stab at Personalized Medicine
Science 308, p1102, Elizabeth Pennisi
"COLD SPRING HARBOR, NEW YORK--Since its beginning 15 years ago, the Human Genome Project was sold to the public and to Congress as a biomedical effort that would ultimately bring a person's unique DNA sequence data to bear on preventing and treating disease..."

June 11, 2004: Surveys Reveal Vast Numbers of Genes
Science 304, p1591, Elizabeth Pennisi
"COLD SPRING HARBOR, NEW YORK--New approaches to genome studies are showing that DNA is full of surprises, researchers learned here 12 to 16 May at the Biology of Genomes meeting..."

June 11, 2004: Disposable DNA Puzzles Researchers
Science 304, p1590-1, Elizabeth Pennisi
"COLD SPRING HARBOR....new research suggests that vast tracts of this sequence may be disposable after all: Marcelo Nóbrega, a geneticist at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (LBNL) in Berkeley, California, finds that mice can do just fine with millions of these bases deleted from their genomes..."

April 16, 2004: The Genes That Change the Cichlid Jaws
Science 304, pp 383-384 , Elizabeth Pennisi
"COLD SPRING HARBOR, NEW YORK- From jellyfish to kangaroos, the meeting ...covered evolutionary, developmental and genetic aspects of a menagerie of organisms" A myriad of critters presented at the Cold Spring Harbor meeting on Evolution of Developmental Diversity [March 31 - April 4, 2004]

April 16, 2004: RNAi Takes Evo-Devo World by Storm
Science 304, p384 , Elizabeth Pennisi
"COLD SPRING HARBOR, NEW YORK…RNAi--the "i" stands for interference--works by neutralizing specific RNAs, essentially shutting down the gene that generated them. It's like using a mutation to knock out a gene, but easier...."

April 16, 2004: Japanese Catch of the Day
Science 304, pp383-384 , Elizabeth Pennisi
"COLD SPRING HARBOR, NEW YORK…Japanese researchers have taken a big first step toward making one of their native fish a worldwide tool for genomicists. Last week, an extensive draft genome of this fish, called medaka, was released to the public...."

Sep 8, 2003: Power Lost, Power Gained
The Scientist p72 by Karen Schindler
"Creativity, camaraderie, and common sense keep yeast cell biology conference alive during The Blackout..." profiles the effect of the great north-eastern blackout on the Cold Spring Harbor meeting on Yeast Cell Biology, August 12 - 17, 2003

June 3, 2003: Gene Sweepstakes Ends, but Winner May Well Be Wrong
New York Times, Nicholas Wade
"...on arriving here, Dr. Birney was persuaded to change his plan. Dr. David Stewart, an organizer of the meeting and the official bookie of the contest, pointed out that the rules specified a winner would be declared now, no loopholes..."

November 12, 2002: Geneticists Track More of Earliest Humans' First Itineraries
New York Times, Nicholas Wade
"Through the wizardry of modern genetics, it is possible to reconstruct the travels of the earliest humans as they moved out from their ancestral home in northeast Africa and spread around the globe. More details of these historic itineraries emerge each year, many at an annual conference of population geneticists and archaeologists at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory on Long Island....."

October 15, 2001: How Bioterror Changes Everything for Scientists
Newsday, by Delthia Ricks
"...'There were about 200 (instances of) biocrimes in the last century,' Atlas said in an address to fellow scientists over the weekend at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory....."
profiles the 10/13 keynote address on "Bioterrorism and the Misuse of Molecular Biology" by Ronald Atlas, University of Louisville, Kentucky, and incoming president of the American Society of Microbiology, at the Cold Spring Harbor meeting on Microbial Pathogenesis & Host Response, re-scheduled in the wake of the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

October 2001: The machine that decodes the Genome
Trends in Biochemical Sciences, Vol 26, No. 10, pp. 585-587, Michael B. Mathews and Tsafi Pe'ery
"This year's Cold Spring Harbor Symposium, the 66th in the series, was on a subject that Jim Watson did not believe could be covered so soon: the ribosome...." profiles the 66th Cold Spring Harbor Symposium on Quantitative Biology held 31 May - 5 June, on the topic of the ribosome, following the recent advances in the determination of high resolution crystallographic and NMR structures of the cellular protein factory. The meeting was attended by around 300 participants from around the world.

October 2001: The Race to Save Your Brain
Worth Magazine, pp. 128-168 by Michael Peltz
"If genius is inspired by the brilliance of nature, it would be hard to find a more fertile setting for science than Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory on the north shore of Long Island...." profiles the first Lehrman-Watson Biomedical Conference held at Cold Spring Harbor on April 19, 2001, which focused on "Pathways to Alzheimer's". This lengthy Worth article focuses particularly on the innovative vaccine approach being developed by Dale Schenk and others at Elan Pharmaceuticals and elsewhere, as well as other therapeutic approaches that are currently being explored.

August 24, 2001: Human Genome Appears More Complicated
The New York Times, Nicholas Wade
"...scientists at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory on Long Island organized a sweepstake for bets on the exact tally, with the winner to be chosen in 2003..." profiles the ongoing debate about the total number of protein-coding genes in the human genome

May 31 2001: AIDS at 20: An Evolving Epidemic. Scientists Fear AIDS' Future
Newsday, Laurie Garrett
"...Last week [John Coffin's] team announced at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory' annual retrovirus meeting the discovery of 26 HERVs in human DNA, many of which appeared to date to pre-human ancestor species. "

May 23 2001: On The Fast Track: Scientists are racing to keep up with what the Human Genome Project is revealing
Newsday, ppC6-C7,Robert Cooke
"Research reports from laboratories around the world - about 300 were presented recently during a major genome conference at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory - show clearly that an exciting, worldwide enterprise has been born..."

May 18 2001: Genomics: New Genomes Shed Light on Complex Cells
Science 292:1280-1, Elizabeth Pennisi
"Cold Spring Harbor, New York - Biologists have long wondered what genes separate the men from the boys...."

April 9 2001: Biotech CEO says map missed much of genome
The Boston Globe, p1, Raja Mishra
"....A pool....is taking bets on the topic, at $5 per bet this year and $20 in 2002. The final tally will occur at a scientific meeting in Cold Spring Harbor, N.Y., in 2003" profiles ongoing speculation in the scientific community about the total number of genes in the human genome

April 3, 2001: Findings Deepen Debate On Using Embryonic Cells
The New York Times, Section: Science Times, Nicholas Wade
"Cold Spring Harbor, N.Y.-- At a conference on stem cells held here in March, researchers reported a lopsided harvest of results. Adult stem cell reserach is racing ahead, but study of embryonic stem cells is lagging...."

March 31, 2001: Stem Cells Yield Promising Results - Benefits For Humans Are Seen In Repairs to Mouse Hearts
The New York Times p1, A12, Nicholas Wade
"...In a third experiment, described this month at a meeting at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory on Long Island, Dr. Robert Deans of Osiris Therapeutics said he had improved heart function in pigs by injecting stem cells into the region of a heart attack...."

February 13, 2001: Bet's Lost for Many in Genome Pool
Newsday, Bryn Nelson
"....the contest took off at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in May....." profiles potential winners and losers in GeneSweep

February 12, 2001: Researchers all bet they know how many genes humans have.
'Genesweep' wagering follows in scientific field's proud gambling tradition
The Baltimore Sun
"....The game was dreamed up last May at the annual genetics conference at Cold Spring Harbor and was an immediate hit, says Stewart...." profiles the ongoing GENESWEEP sweepstake, started during the Cold Spring Harbor 2000 Genome Sequencing & Biology meeting

February 5, 2001: Career-Enhancing Training Courses
The Scientist 15, No 3, page 27, Kate Devine
profiles postgraduate US-based residential short courses in the biological sciences, including the Cold Spring Harbor courses, Jackson Labs courses and Woods Hole courses.

December 15, 2000: Plants Join the Genome Sequencing Bandwagon
Science 290, pp2054-2055, Elizabeth Pennisi
"....both [James D. Watson and Michael Sussman] were on hand this week at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory along with more than 150 Arabidopsis researchers for a gathering that was part science and part celebration" profiles the completion of the first plant genome and the 2000 Cold Spring Harbor conference on Arabdopsis Genomics that coincided with the genome's publication in Nature.

November 14, 2000: The Origin of the Europeans; Combining Genetics and Archaeology, Scientists Rough Out Continent's 50,000-Year-Old Story
The New York Times, Section: Science Desk, Nicholas Wade

"......"It is astonishing how much archaeology is beginning to learn from
genetics,'' Dr. Colin Renfrew, a leading archaeologist at the University of Cambridge in England, said at a conference on human origins held last month at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory on Long Island."

profiles recent advances discussed at the Cold Spring Harbor meeting on Human Origins & Disease, October 25 - 29, 2000

July 25, 2000: $1 Gets You Into This Gene Pool
Los Angeles Times, p1, Robert Lee Hotz
"...contestants must personally sign their name and write their e-mail address and their number in a book maintained...at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory..." profiles the ongoing nature of Genesweep, the sweepstake on the total number of genes in the human genome, started during the Cold Spring Harbor 2000 Genome Sequencing & Biology meeting

May 28, 2000: Wanna bet you know our number of genes
Source: Charlestown Gazette, Nicholas Wade (NYT service)

May 23, 2000: Scientists bet on gene numbers
Phoenix Tribune; East Valley Tribune, Nicholas Wade (NYT service)

May 23, 2000: Scientists bet on your genes
Syracuse Post, Nicholas Wade (NYT service)

May 23, 2000: Questions and Answers About Genetic Research
The Washinton Post, pA16, Justin Gillis & Rick Weiss
"....Genome scientists have started an official, international betting pool at $1 an entry (bets will cost more as more helpful data come in), in preparation for an official "final" tally to be completed in April 2003...."

May 23, 2000: Scientists Cast Bets on Human Genes; a Winner Will Be Picked in 2003
The New York Times, Nicholas Wade
"..........At a meeting this month at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory on Long Island they opened a sweepstakes for bets on the number of human genes. The winner will be chosen based on the most likely number decreed at the same annual meeting in 2003........"

May 22, 2000: Microbiologists Each Toss a Dollar Into the Human "Gene Pool''. On conference break, scientists bet cash on number of genes
The San Fransisco Chronicle, Tom Abate

May 19, 2000: Zebrafish Earns Its Stripes In Genetic Screens
Science 288, pp1160-1, Elizabeth Pennisi
"Cold Spring Harbor, New York--In biology, as in mechanics, one of the best ways to figure out how something works is to break it...." , profiles the latest genetic research presented at the Cold Spring Harbor meeting on Zebrafish Development & Genetics, April 26 - 30, 2000

May 19, 2000: And the Gene Number Is...?
Science 288, pp1146-7, Elizabeth Pennisi
"Cold Spring Harbor, New York--Even though a draft sequence of the human genome is nearing completion, biologists still don't know how many genes it contains...." profiles the sweepstake on the total number of genes in the human genome started during the Cold Spring Harbor 2000 Genome Sequencing & Biology meeting

May 18, 2000: Researchers take a gamble on the human genome
Nature 405, p264, Paul Smaglik
"...Biologists are taking bets - literally on the number of genes in the human genome. Enterprising attendees at the annual Cold Spring Harbor genome meeting last week opened a book, taking bets at $1 a time...." profiles the sweepstake on the total number of genes in the human genome started during the Cold Spring Harbor 2000 Genome Sequencing & Biology meeting

May 15, 2000: In Praise of Genome Science
Wired News, Kristen Philipkoski
"COLD SPRING HARBOR, New York -- At the most exciting time in history for those who study human genes, Francis Collins, leader of the Human Genome Project, spoke to a rapt audience over the weekend at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory....."

May 13, 2000: Amped Geneticists Bet on Genome
Wired News, Kristen Philipkoski
"COLD SPRING HARBOR, New York -- Scientists visiting Long Island for a genome conference were clearly more interested in gene sequencing than ethics. Conference attendees milled around the lobby of Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory's auditorium.." profiles the sweepstake on the total number of genes in the human genome started by Ewan Birney during the Cold Spring Harbor 2000 Genome Sequencing & Biology meeting.

May 12, 2000: No Biotech Bombshells at Confab
Wired News, Kristen Philipkoski
"..No human genome sequences will be announced until June, so relax. That was the message sent Thursday by Craig Venter, president and CEO of Celera Genomics, at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory's Genome Sequencing and Biology conference..."

May 12, 2000: DNA Project Foes Deny Race
Newsday, A31, Bryn Nelson
"Amid growing speculation about who might win the race to decode the genetic book of human life and after two years of dueling news releases, leaders from both research groups involved in the effort have discounted the notion of a competition at all........"

May 12, 2000: Public SNP Group Not So PublicWired News
Wired News, Kristen Philipkoski
"..'Someone could pick up an unmapped SNP and add it to their database and claim they have sufficient utility for a patent,' said [Lincoln] Stein, speaking on Wednesday evening at the Genome Sequencing and Biology Conference....."

May 11, 2000: Frantic Geneticists Await Finish
Wired News, Kristen Philipkoski
"COLD SPRING HARBOR, New York -- Conferences on genetics are not usually bristling with excitement, but then again, human genome researchers have never before been at the brink of a historical landmark of such magnitude....."

November 16, 1999: Grassroots Gene Technolology: Catch-Up in DNA Lab / LI scientists showcase pioneering technology to fit small budgets
Newsday, pCO3, Bryn Nelson
"THE REVOLUTION BEGAN last June, appropriately enough, over pints of ale in a British pub at an informal get-together attended by such scientific luminaries as James Watson of Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory and Stanford University's Patrick Brown......" profiles CSH course on "Making & Using DNA Microarrays", October 20-November 2, 1999

May 22, 1999: Gains Are Reported in Decoding Genome
The New York Times
"The publicly financed effort to decode the human genome, the three billion units of DNA at the heart of every human cell, is now 10 percent complete and is on track to meet its goal of finishing a first draft of the genome a year from now, officials ..." profiles the 1999 Cold Spring Harbor Genome Sequencing and Biology meeting

May 9, 1999: DNA Backs a Tribe's Tradition Of Early Descent From the Jews
The New York Times, Nicholas Wade
"The Lemba, a Bantu-speaking people of southern Africa, have a tradition that they were led out of Judea by a man named Buba. They practice circumcision, keep one day a week holy and avoid eating pork or piglike animals, such as the hippopotamus...." profiles David Goldstein's discovery of the genetic links between the Lemba and the Jewish priesthood, presented at the Cold Spring Harbor meeting on Human Evolution, April 21-25, 1999

April 29, 1999: Lab Receives $1.32M Grant / Hughes Institute donation will aid education programs
Newsday, A72, Michael Unger
"The Howard Hughes Medical Institute has awarded a $1.32 million grant to the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory's science education programs, continuing its long-standing support. The funds will help support the laboratory's advanced courses in neuroscience..."

June 26 1998: Biomedical Research Funding: Europe's Cold Spring Harbor
Science 280, pp2043-2044, Nigel Williams
"..Steered by program manager Michael Morgan at the Wellcome Trust, the campus project is modeled on the highly successful mix of research and meetings established at Cold Spring Harbor on Long Island, New York, where seclusion and peaceful surroundings play an important role in fostering scientific discussion.."